Wednesday, September 19, 2012

HPC Approves Abbott Manor Roof Repair

A property owner's costly plight cut no ice with members of the Historic Preservation Commission Tuesday when they approved a new roof and other repairs only if they met strict standards.

Andre Yates, the new owner of Abbott Manor, spent most of the evening giving examples of his previous reconstruction of city homes and detailing the extensive costs he faces in restoring the former nursing home at 810 Central Avenue. After citing his "fabulous work" on the other buildings, he said he had gone up on the roof of the Central Avenue home with contractors who, after examining the slate roof, deemed it at the end of its useful life and "beyond repair."

The city's Historic Preservation ordinance, which the commission upholds, calls for replacing "like with like" in exterior repairs to buildings in historic districts. Yates urged commissioners to accept a kind of asphalt shingles instead of slate, calling the cost of slate prohibitive and noting use of such roofing in several nearby buildings.

Glancing around the table at commissioners and at several residents in attendance, Yates said, "I need everyone in here to help me get it right, and I know you will."

But the commissioners held out for slate or a shingle that closely resembles slate, although Commissioner Bill Michelson said he might consider a shingled roof if Yates told what he plans to do with the building. That question went unanswered as the discussion wore on, with Yates continuing to stress cost factors.

"I have a huge project here," he said.

Commissioner Pat Turner Kavanaugh said, "I want that building to come back as you clearly do, but it will not return to anything like its former status if you put a roof on there that's totally inappropriate."

After more back-and-forth between Yates and other commissioners, Turner Kavanaugh said, "This roof is not right for that building - end of story."

Still, Yates persevered, saying the total renovation was going to be an "enormous financial undertaking" and asking for "understanding."

But Commissioner John Favazzo said he saw a compromise on the roof as a gateway to further compromises.

"You have to get off to the right foot," he said, calling the roof "most important."

If the work has to be phased, Favazzo said, then Yates might have to do so. A wrong change, he said, "compromises every other building in Plainfield."

"You are asking us to alter the whole city of Plainfield," Favazzo said.

Although he said he understood Favazzo's point, Yates noted the ongoing recession and decline in property values.

"To spend $45,000 on a roof, that's a lot of money," he said.

Michelson told Yates, "You have done us a great service by getting Dr. and Mrs. Lapid to sign a deed," referring to the former owners, but adding, "You bought a house for $100,000 knowing it would need repairs," and calling Yates' concerns "crocodile tears."

In public comment before the vote, several residents agreed with commissioners on the negative effect of using lesser materials for repairs. Rowand Clark asked the board not to "summarily dismiss the idea of putting on real slate" and others pushed for copper metalwork exclusively.

The board finally approved the project with architectual slate-like tiles and copperwork, with all materials to be reviewed before construction.

Outside the meeting, Yates declined to say what he had in mind for the building once it is rehabilitated and would not confirm a rumor that he planned a veterans' home.

Abbott Manor was once a 35-bed nursing home, but drew intense opposition to a planned expansion. Read the history of litigation on the matter here. 

--Bernice 

43 comments:

  1. Good... so nice to see there are people in Plainfield who will stick to their guns.

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  2. .... and cling to their religion.

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  3. It is always a challenge to meet all the requirements of historic buildings. Developers who go into such projects are well aware of the costs and challenges associated, or they don't remain in business very long. This kind of community push back is healthy for historic renovation all over the country.

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    1. It is a sad truth that people who have the money to buy historic properties often don't have the aesthetic abilities or knowledge to restore using appropriate materials and quality workmanship. In the late 1980s, I took a week long retreat in and a tour of the great camps in the Adirondacks. The man responsible for the proper restoration of camps still intact had to work very hard with the wealthy buyers of the camps. Thank heavens for those devoted to restoration. There must be an alternative route to getting a slate roof on that gorgeous home. Perhaps hiring Bill Garrett to train young Plainfielders in the skill of laying a slate roof.

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  4. A 45K roof for a building that supposedly cost 100K? That might make sense to those who own nearby and are desperate to rekindle the value in their homes with a romantic vision of Plainfield's splendid past but it makes no sense whatsoever to an investor or homeowner with a normal income. I'd replace Rob's bromide "stick[ing] to their guns" with "rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic".

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    1. Then an investor or homeowner with normal income should not be purchasing that property. There is a reason it's 100k and around the corner homes are 1 million. A proper investor would spend 45k on the roof and do the renovation correctly keeping with architectural preservation and then realize his investment is worth a whole lot more than if he cheaped out and ruined the integrity of the building. There is value in historical preservation, he just doesn't care he wants the quick buck

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    2. "Homes around the corner for 1 million" , are you serious? In the 3rd ward. I think not. Not even in the 2nd ward any longer.

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    3. Since you are oblivious let me show you:

      531 West 8th St - $1,500,000.00
      http://new.gsmls.com/publicsite/propsearch.do?method=moredetails&sysid=2931928

      The Van Wyck Brooks Mansion on corner of West 8th and Plainfield ave is also rumored to be on the market for 2+ million.

      not for sale but another recent magnificent renovation of a queen anne victorian that had been on several house tours on West 8th is easily valued over 1 million. These grand homes don't go for sale often but doesnt mean they are not worth the money. Homeowners just love their homes and take pride in their neighborhood.

      All homes around the corner, think before you speak. If you dont have any facts to back it up its only your opinion and you can keep it to yourself. There is enough negativity in Plainfield we dont need any more from someone who obviously doesnt know the area. The homeowners that attend the HPC meeting have a legit concern and want whats best for their neighborhood. The HPC did there job plain and simple, if he doesnt like it sell the property and invest in something outside a historic district.

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    4. I think it is important to be factual. The house you mentioned has NOT been sold, has it? Just because someone lists it at 1.5m doesn't mean they will even get half of that.

      And the other one you mentioned on West 8th has not been sold either. The reality of it is that just because they put money into doesn't mean it will sell for a million dollars. My guess is that it would sit at half that amount.

      For you to say that there are million dollar homes in the area because you feel there worth a million dollars, well that is great, but naive.

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    5. A seller can list their home for any amount THEY feel it's worth. However, a house is truly only worth what a buyer is willing to pay. So the value is based on sold properties not what it’s currently listed for. I believe the mansion you reference on W8th for 1.5 Million has been on the market for a number of years. I agree the integrity of the homes in historic areas should conform to standard and we should not let investors move in and try to make a quick buck by cutting cost, they know what and where they purchased.


      Robin
      Realtor – 16 + years in Plainfield.

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    6. At 100,000, that home was a gift to the purchaser. He should creatively figure out how to restore the home properly.

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    7. The fact of the matter is these homes are irreplaceable which is why you dont see anyone building homes today with this amount of detail and character. The "value" only matters when you want to sell it, and its only "worth" what a buyer will pay which varies with the market. But to build a home like this the price tag would be insane. The design and details in the architecture from leaded glass windows, stonework, woodwork, slate roofs, etc needs to be preserved. There is a reason these homes have stood for 100+ years, they were built by skilled craftsmen with quality materials and are important part of our history. The downside is repairs etc are more expensive no question, you need to right skilled person to repair or renovate with the right materials. Todays new homes are all built as cheap as possible and you can bet they wont stand the test of time. Noone will talk about a gaudy McMansion 100 years from now because they have no character. Glad to see the neighbors fighting to make sure this building is preserved the right way.

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    8. In the future, homes with the artistry present in the grand homes of Plainfield will be appropriately priced - it is a gorgeous city. To those who have no real sense of value, take a look at Park Slope Brooklyn, where, only 40 years ago, homes were severely undervalued by the real estate market and they were inhabited by the poor, the working class and artists. Now, the brownstones are priced so that only the wealthy can afford them.

      The last time I was in a taxi, I asked the driver to drive past the Abbot Manor. We parked outside of it. He thought I was stupid for having an interest in the building, and so did his girlfriend. They laughed at me when I said that a lot of the neighborhoods in Plainfield are among the most beautiful in the world and I explained to them that I had traveled to and lived in some of the most beautiful parts of the world. They looked at each other as if I were crazy. The person above who keeps saying we are naive is simply an incredibly ignorant person and a bully.

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  5. Congrats to the HPC for standing up to this developer and doing what the are supposed to, preserve historical architecture! Yates can argue all about cost but every homeowner who lives in a historic district knows the cost as most have been through a renovation project to some extent or another and paid the price because it's the right way to do it. He cites declining property values but right around the corner on 8th are million dollar homes, hard
    To cry about that when you only spend 100k. Property values are higher in historic districts because of the architecture and preservation in place. Its people like Yates who destroy these historic properties by cutting them up and cheaping out in renovations that bring down property values. They only care about how much profit they can make off it and don't care about the preservation that maintains the look of the neighborhood. Nice to see the community supporting the HPC and making sure properties are preserved. Mr Yates should read This Old House magazine on best places to live. Van Wyck Brooks Historic District didn't win several awards this year for no reason.

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  6. I think the Historic Committee needs to get in the reality of today. What is owners who can't aford what some unreasonable people want and they abandon the property and give it back to the bank. If that happens, then like many other nice old houses in Plainfield, the roof will cave in and the porch will fall off. Drive down some streets in Plainfield to see the results of costly and unreasonable people. We need a reality check here.

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    1. Great destruction happens when we put power in the hands of the ignorant. It saddens me that this man is in possession of such a precious home.

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    2. Bob, drive down the streets outside a historic district and see the results of lack of historic preservation it's the ghetto that's your reality!

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    3. @ Bob, developers who don't have business sense to know what costs are associated with mansions need the reality check. II this was small ranch or split level the roof cost would be less. In regards to driving down the streets to see u reasonable quick fixes look at west front for example. Your viewpoint is bad for Plainfield. BTW, I attend the HPC meetings with my neighbors fighting for what we believe in. Are you at these meetings?

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  7. I wAs in the meeting last night and sat there and listed to how he belittles plainfield. To the home owner, "it's only Plainfield" as If we should have lower standards because it's not Edison where he lives. His attitude aboutthe city and publicizing it only is going to make his renovation tougher as he now is making enimies with neighbors and board members for in which he should be friendly. This approach is never a good approach to down the city as a poor city. One board member did remind him that we all live in Plainfield kind of hinting to stop downing us. Someone also made it clear we are trying to improve the city and make it better and with that kind of attitude things will never change as we have narrow minded investors. Finally, someone did tell him that when he is all done with his restoration and when he starts renting it out, we the citizens havr to deal with what he is going to rent it to and he will just sit back and collect.

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    1. So Yates has to be friends with the HPC people to get approved? I don't agree with that. It's not the job of the HPC to judge the character of the applicant, they're suppose to just judge the project presented. Plus do you really expect the applicant to friend up with Pat Turner and Billy Michelson?

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    2. "It's only Plainfield." That reveals a lot about Yates. It's sad that he has bought the building. *shaking my head*

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  8. The approval to change replacement materials at historic districts/properties has been done before, all you have to do is to look around (look also at the HPC past files) and while being "historically correct" calls for "like with like" the truth is that the cost of slate is the highest when it comes to roof material, if you are a preservationist then you might go for slate, unfortunately Plainfield, despite its great efforts to preserve its historic homes is not viewed as "preservation heaven". I feel sorry for Andre Yates, the Van Wyck Brooks HD and the HPC as they already seem to have started their "relationship" on the wrong foot. Hopefully the Abbott Manor will not be one other house that gets abandoned by an investor who runs out of money or simply gets frustrated with Plainfield. Good luck to all!

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    1. It's absurd to feel sorry for anyone who does not care about Plainfield and purchases a historic mansion with the intent of cheaping out and taking short cuts on such a project. Yet alone a group home.

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  9. A veterans home! That is what I have heard. That means major renovation inside to bring the building to code. Yates has not done a beautfil job in Plainfield. Fixing gutters does not qualify.

    Get out of town, Mr. Yates. You have no respect for Plainfield, or the people here. Sell the home to developers who really do want to preserve Plainfield. You don't have the money, you don't care what the building looks like, and you don't care about being a good citizen here. GO!!!!

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  10. Before it was Abbott Manor, 810 Central Avenue was owned by one of our earliest members, Mrs. LeRoy (Evelyn Patterson) Gates. Mrs. Gates was related to many Plainfielders which included her daughter, Polly Heely, a well known life-long resident of Plainfield

    Here is the direct link to the archives on Mrs. Gates (and her home):
    http://andyswebtools.com/cgi-bin/p/awtp-pa.cgi?d=plainfield-garden-club&type=4495

    And the direct link to Mrs. Heely:
    http://andyswebtools.com/cgi-bin/p/awtp-pa.cgi?d=plainfield-garden-club&type=4494

    We are certain that Eveyln, Polly and their large family would applaud the HPC. (Including Eveyln's mother that lived at 740 West Eigth)

    The Ladies of the Plainfield Garden Club
    Caretakers of the Shakespeare Garden
    Installed 1927

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  11. Hi Bernice,

    Re-reading your comments I see that there might be a confusion on what the commission approved?

    The architectural slate-like shingles are still asphalt shingles thus the HPC did approve a change to the existent roof, they have approved this change in the past and apparently, for what I understood in your post, they did it again....they just gave a little bit of a fight to Mr. Yates and that is why I said that I feel sorry for all those involved.

    If I am not correct in thinking they approved changing the current slate roof to a more expensive looking asphalt shingle please feel free to correct me.

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  12. I'm pleased to know that the HPC didn't settle for an asphalt roof, although, I'm sorry to hear that they did settle for slate-like tiles, unless of course you cannot tell the difference from afar, I'm not familiar with the product. A compromise on one of the homes largest and most visible features is disappointing; this sets a precedent for the rest of the dealings the HPC will have with the home owner, who, right-off does not seem to be dealing in good faith as he has not disclosed what he plans on doing with the property.

    Supposedly the home owner plans on making this a veterans' home which will house numerous people, basically, another group home for Plainfield; for each one of these residents, he will be generating a good deal of income and then some. He’ll be able to off-set the cost of a real slate roof in relatively short time with the revenue he generates, most likely, and then claim it as a business deduction or depreciate it over time.

    I understand how costly it can be to repair and restore this type of property, however, this is a business venture not a private residence. He’ll be making a handsome profit, even more handsome if he doesn’t have to comply with the HPC standards and they keep compromising.

    This is a smart business man who came to Plainfield for a bargain, and he got one for 100K. I’m sure he was aware of the home’s historic district location and the rules affecting cosmetic changes to the exterior of the home, which he figured into his business plan – so he has the money for it.

    More regulations, not less, is needed when it comes to preserving one of the few commodities Plainfield has right now, its housing stock.

    If we expect less, we’ll get less.

    If we expect more, we’ll get more.

    Expect more, please.

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    1. I couldn't agree more, Plainfield has lost enough homes to absentee landlords sucking the money from them and just letting them deteriorate that residents have to see daily.

      We cant expect more though, we need to demand more.

      We need to demand code enforcement! not just in historic districts but throughout the city.

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  13. Maria is correct that the HPC compromised and allowed a Slate-look roof (like the original but cheaper) rather than the Wood-look that the applicant wanted. Mr. Yates intends to turn this property into a profit-making commercial enterprise and was well aware what is required when one takes on a property in an historic district and should have planned his costs appropriately. However, he wishes to do it the cheapest way possible which means that the other historic district property owners (who bear the added expenses of repairing their own historic homes) will bear his cost when the poor rehab work he suggests lowers the value of the district and the value of the homes in it. Mr. Yates publicly stated that he wants to make this property a wonderful historic landmark and he should thank the HPC for helping him achieve his goal.

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  14. The fact that he won't replace the roof with slate shows that he's not sincerely concerned about historic renovation or he doesn't have the money to restore the home properly. Why is he keeping secret what his commercial intentions are for the building? He doesn't seem trustworthy. All we can do is hope that the rest of his renovations won't be shoddy. I'm wincing at the thought of no slate on the roof (just as I winced every time my father, and later, my oldest sister, made a decision to destroy something in the 1920s dutch colonial home I grew up in on Dixie Lane). I wish the wealthy in Plainfield would subsidize a slate roof for the home. It's one of my favorites. *shaking my head*

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    1. His intentions for the home most likly is not a secret. If he plans on using it as a commercial property I think he would need to apply for a varience. You can check with the zoning board to see what his plans are (if he already filed)

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  15. I wish Yates would sell the home to someone who really loves and cherishes the architectural gems of Plainfield. After reading all of the comments above, I think it was a bad decision to let him go ahead with an asphalt roof that mimics slate. Our precious homes in Plainfield suffer so.

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  16. To 11:12pm - no Yates does not have to be friends with the HPC, but is it OK with you that he has no respect for Plainfield?

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  17. I never said he needed to have tea and crumpets with the hpc but showing some respect for the houses, neighborhood and our town the most would be a good start. I dont welcome him at all.

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  18. Mr. Yates never said "It's only Plainfield." What he did say several times was "It's Plainfield." At the meeting I was wondering what he meant by that. People are interpreting his remark in different ways. But let's not put words in his mouth.

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    1. Saying its Plainfield several times while trying to put on the cheapest roof possibly only implies that he doesn't care about Plainfield and feels because it's Plainfield he should be able to do what he wants. How can you wonder what he meant by that??? If you have to wonder about that I must wonder if you should even be on the HPC. There are HPC guidelines for a reason and they need to be followed.

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  19. Jan,

    You are incorrect. You need to stand for something and stop walking on egg shells. I was at the meeting and his statement clearly indicated he had no respect for our town. If you cannot protect our historic architecture you need to figure out how to be more effective or leave it to other people. What a joke.

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  20. John -- the poster boy for the VWB historic district -- didn't put a REAL slate roof on his home did he? No, he put a very nice look-alike on his home, and it looks good.

    What's the problem with a 50-year slate look alike product?

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    1. There is no problem with a slate look alike product, in fact he was approved for a slate look alike product. The problem is mr Yates doesn't want to spend the extra money for it. He only wants to put on his cheap shingles for 17k because...it's Plainfield! To anyone living here that should be like a huge slap in the face especially to those sitting on the HPC

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  21. I was at the meeting and I didn't hear Yates say "It's only Plainfield". He said many positive comments about our historic homes and how he wanted to protect them, he talked about depressed real estate values, and he said "it's Plainfield" several times. He wants to put on the least expensive roof, one that doesn't belong on the house and would look awful - this doesn't fit with what he said about wanting to protect our historic homes, and it would be unacceptable. But I didn't hear him say "It's only Plainfield."

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  22. He said it loud and clear.

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  23. To Anonymous September 22, 2012 9:51 PM and September 22, 2012 9:28 PM - Yates also made many comments about how he appreciated our historic architecture, which he certainly contradicted by wanting to put a totally inappropriate roof on Abbott Manor. Maybe people heard him as saying “It’s only Plainfield” because of the context and his plans for the house. Still, that’s not what he actually said. Among other things, I stand for accurately quoting people even if I don’t like them, and I stand for civility even during a disagreement. And I stand by my statements – I don’t sign my posts “anonymous.”

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  24. Dear me, am I really that hard "to friend up with"? But Mr Yates does not have to friend up with anyone on the HPC to get the approvals he needs. We take an oath to serve on the HPC, and we are expected to take training every year. And I like to think I'm a generally nice person. And, like Jan, I always sign my name.

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